magic markets ep211: private markets are a hive of activity

For companies seeking capital, founders wanting to exit their stake and investors who desire diversification and solid returns, private debt and equity markets offer a vibrant ecosystem. Dino Zuccollo of Westbrooke Alternative Asset Management joined us to discuss activity across the capital stack and some of the key trends coming into 2025, as well as the general levels of adoption of this asset class in South Africa and abroad.

The Finance Ghost: Welcome to episode 211 of Magic Markets. That’s becoming a pretty big number now! We have done a lot of Magic Markets podcasts – and we’ve done a lot of Magic Markets podcasts with the team from Westbrooke. Sometimes I think that Dino Zuccollo should actually be mentioned as almost a co-founder of this thing, he’s been on so many times! I’m grateful for that because we always learn so much from him about this world of private markets and how Westbrooke operates. It’s really great.

Dino is back with us this week and it’s going to be super interesting. But before I welcome Dino, or maybe I’ll hand that over to you, Moe, you can welcome Dino formally, but hello to you all the way from Canada as usual, in a jersey which I don’t need to wear right now because it is summer where I am. I’m sorry for you.

Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, you’ve got to stop rubbing the weather in my face there, Ghost. I mean, we know Cape Town’s beautiful! Heck, even Joburg is beautiful weather-wise relative to Canada – right now it’s quite freezing. But that aside, Dino, great to have you back on the show. Again for our listeners who maybe aren’t familiar with Dino, Dino’s from Westbrooke. The reason why we have Westbrooke on the show is that Magic Markets is all about markets and markets are not just listed assets. There’s a massive asset class out there in the alternative asset space. Westbrooke pretty much plays across the value spectrum there. They’re involved in private debt, hybrid capital, real estate, private equity, you name it – Westbrooke’s actually got an offering in those spaces.

They’ve done a really good job in terms of taking those alternative asset classes and bringing them through to connecting the investors on the one side as well as businesses on the other side that may have a requirement for funding. So that’s some of the reasons as to why we like having Dino and the team at Westbrooke on the show, it allows us to actually round out our discussion on markets. So with that, welcome back to Magic Markets, Dino, I don’t think we’ve had you during 2025, so I’m gonna say Happy New Year, even though it’s already in February.

We’ve got a lot to get through in today’s show because private assets have been very topical globally. You’ve got these two sides of the coin where some people are saying, private assets, this is the way to go. Listed markets aren’t really where you’re going to be getting decent risk-adjusted returns. And on the other end of the spectrum, you’ve got people that are still afraid of private assets, they’re still afraid of alternatives. And that goes with (A) in terms of a lack of understanding, but (B) maybe also in terms of just where are we in the cycle, what’s happening with interest rates, are private assets actually priced correctly etc. Lots of dynamics at play there and I’d like to unpack some of that on the show, so I’m going to stop there. Dino, I’m going to welcome you to the show because I’m really keen to get into some of those discussion points with you.

Dino Zuccollo: Moe, Ghost, it’s such a pleasure to be here. I look forward to doing many more of these this year. I think from the Westbrooke perspective, something we’d like to do is bring you a bit closer to both the investor and the partner side of our businesses. Talk a little bit more in depth around: what are the issues investors are grappling with, what are the things that our entrepreneurs that we fund are looking for, give you some case studies, etc. And hopefully stop talking at such a high level and being a bit somewhat esoteric and getting really into the meat and potatoes of what we do and why.

The Finance Ghost: Sounds good, Dino. We’re definitely going to hold you to it, that I can tell you for sure. So let’s get into some of these meat and potato issues and maybe just talk to why this stuff really actually matters at the end of the day, because private markets are relevant and growing in relevance. From our side, we see it, I certainly see it on the JSE, you don’t see many companies coming to public markets, trying to raise capital, seeing that as their way to actually access money or get an exit for entrepreneurs. I think that’s a big one as well. People founded a business and they want to actually get their money off the table – public markets are not necessarily the friendliest place to do that.

It’s not just a JSE problem. You see very similar stories coming out of the UK market. I think the US is a little bit of a bubble, to be honest, for a hundred reasons, and becoming more of a bubble basically every day! But we’re definitely not going to talk politics today. We are going to talk private markets, though. This suggests that there’s more and more activity happening in private markets. Would you say that is what’s happening?

Dino Zuccollo: Yeah, I think private markets are probably the, or one of the asset management and investing trends of the world right now. And it’s driven by a variety of factors. I just think back to when I worked in corporate finance 10 years ago. If I remember correctly, you did, too! That was a time where listed companies were trading at massive premiums to their NAV and capital markets were open and there was things happening. If you look at the situation today, it’s just literally done a 180. It’s almost a swearword in some instances to be listed today. And if you look at the stats in the US, the JSE is no different. The number of listed counters has halved, but the market caps have gone up. So what does that mean? That means that there’s more concentration in fewer stocks and increasingly the big – the Apples of the world, are driving performance and investors, without realising it, are becoming more and more concentrated and more and more correlated.

So, why alternatives have become so relevant in my view is, and my thinking has evolved on this as well, in the beginning days I thought that this was very much about giving investors better returns. And, and that is, of course, an objective, but actually it’s about diversification because we live in a world today where the magnificent – I don’t even know what they’re called anymore – they’re the Magnificent Seven or whatever, the FAANGs, etc.

The Finance Ghost: Magnificent Seven. Magnificent Seven.

Dino Zuccollo: Thank you.

The Finance Ghost: We’ll see what it comes out as next, though, it’ll probably change again. So point they’ll kick Tesla out and I’ll be right. Just kidding.

Dino Zuccollo: Yeah. I mean, the point is, so much of what happens now economically in one’s portfolio is driven by the performance of those seven businesses. That’s actually quite scary. So when you look at the fact that the global investable universe is predominantly in private businesses, it doesn’t really make sense that people’s investment portfolios don’t incorporate private assets. And that’s really what alternatives are – they are private market versions of the things that people are used to investing into. The old 60/40, 60% equities, 40% bonds, in my view, is dead. That’s been proven to be a less optimal way of allocating over the last 15 years mathematically than if you were to incorporate alternatives into it. So I think in that context, and then if you look at 2025 in the context of a world that’s just exceptionally volatile, you’ve got Trump doing and saying crazy things and a lot of the world, led by populism, enjoying it. It’s a scary place to be an investor. I think alternatives are one way of potentially steadying the ship to some degree.

The Finance Ghost: I’m going to let Moe jump in now because I know he’s itching to ask you something, Dino, but I just wanted to comment on your point about that capital activity 10 years ago because I think it’s super important and needs to be stressed again because, yes, I was also in corporate finance at around the same time as you and there was so much more activity. And if you think on the JSE about the recent listings that have gained some kind of excitement, it was WeBuyCars, right, and Boxer. Those are the two that really come to mind. Both of those were spin-outs from broken things. So technically both assets were already available to investors, they were just wrapped up in something that then became very broken and they were set free. It’s not exactly, oh, brand new company we’ve never seen before comes to market and raises R500 million to go off and do amazing things. It’s a difficult situation and it’s nice to see private markets stepping in there for entrepreneurs as access to capital and as exits.

Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, Ghost. Maybe one thing to add there, you’ve mentioned the companies that have listed on the JSE. I think the prevalent trend is actually delisting though, right? You’ve got the potential for companies like Barloworld to be taken private as well. Imperial’s gone, so I think that trend also talks to the rise of alternative assets as an asset class. I want to go back to Dino’s point on diversification, because Dino’s right. It’s not just about returns for me, it’s about risk-adjusted returns. That’s just a fancy way of saying diversification. And I think one of the things is an access point – listed assets have become very easily accessible. There are lots of passives out there. People go and they buy ETFs and they then get that concentrated risk that we’re talking about. Alternatives maybe globally they’ve lagged a little bit in terms of accessibility. It’s gotten a lot better.

Something that’s interesting is you’ve always gotta follow the money. I know up here in Canada, Canada and North America, but Canada specifically, the institutions, the big pension funds have been all over the alternative asset class space for the longest time. They’ve got material investments in infrastructure, you name it, they’ve invested globally. And you’d see that to a much lesser degree, I think, down in South Africa, where I think a lot of the prevalent thinking certainly around pension funds is still the old school 60/40 approach.

That’s got to change. I’m going to say that straight out. That’s got to change because international investors have evolved, the market has moved. That’s the reason why this discussion is so important, is that investors need to stop shooting themselves in the foot. They need to be able to have access to these types of assets to give you better risk-adjusted returns. This is not me just being a shill for Westbrooke. This is my firm and fundamental view on the underlying asset class and asset allocation. Now, Dino, there is a question in here and where I want to go with this is that there’s a lot of fear and hesitation to invest in private markets. And like I said, some of that comes from education. I think we’ve done a lot with Westbrooke on this podcast to try and educate people about the different pillars of the alternative asset class spectrum and what they mean. I think that’s one point. But the other point is what I mentioned, accessibility. So my question is, where do you think those choke points currently are? And specifically then, where are those choke points for South African investors? What are the trends you’re seeing? Are they actually adopting the asset class?

Dino Zuccollo: Yeah, Moe, I know that the listeners aren’t seeing me here, but I’m smiling and there’s a reason I’m smiling while you ask the question. Because the question you ask is one of the key debates that we have internally within Westbrooke all day long, which is, I think it’s generally accepted now that alternatives have a place and I think the demand is there and it’s kind of hard to refute the role that private market assets play in a portfolio. However, I feel like in South Africa we really are still fitting a square into a circle or a circle into square, however you want to say it, in terms of giving investors access to private markets, because the investment ecosystem in this country is not established from a regulatory perspective to allow it.

So if you look at our base, there are three types of clients. There’s a direct client who comes to Westbrooke directly and invests with us. That’s the easiest type. I would suspect that many on the podcast are those types of investors. However, the majority of investable assets in this country sit in a combination of wealth management advised clients and then institutions. Now, wealth management advised clients in South Africa are tied to platforms – NinetyOne, Glacier, Coronation, etc. which are platforms that are designed to allow wealth advisors to buy products for their clients. And many wealth advisors, by the way, also use something called a discretionary fund manager or a DFM, which is an institution or an organisation that effectively they outsource the investment function to. I think that’s great, because if you’re a two- or three-man wealth management business, it’s impossible for you to assess the entire global ecosystem of investable assets. Now the problem is neither the platforms that I’ve just mentioned nor the DFMs in the way that they are constructed are allowed to buy alternatives because there’s just a blanket prohibition on them buying things that are not priced every day and traded every day, right?

At the moment our conversation really is to direct clients and to those few wealth advisors who are willing to move outside of what they normally do on the platforms and buy alternatives, which mean they’ve got to manage it separately and report on it separately, etc.

Then obviously the big one is the institutions, right? I think more and more as I progressed down this road, I realised that the likes of a multi-manager has a huge role to play in giving, call it the retail investor, exposure to alternatives indirectly by including alternatives in their portfolios. We’ve had some of those come into the Westbrooke ecosystem recently. We’ve got a long way to go, Moe, if you compare South Africa to places like the US or the EU in terms of access, and it’s probably one of the biggest impediments that we have outside of just basic education and something around the complexity of what it is that we do.

Mohammed Nalla: Dino, maybe just a follow-up there. A lot of that, as you indicated, is the regulatory hurdles and burdens. What is the industry doing to engage with the regulator to actually move this discussion onto a much more mature phase? Because I sometimes feel as though the regulators missed the point completely down in South Africa. It’s why they’re so far behind what’s been done in the rest of the world.

Dino Zuccollo: There are regulatory pushes taking place, Moe, but the reality is that hope is not a strategy. In my view, the path of least resistance is to try and find ways to package what we do in a more palatable format. To say that we don’t have any hope for regulatory change would be unfair. But these things are slow and unfortunately the desire to change in the world of alternatives is low down the priority list relative to, for example, tax changes for hedge funds and so on and so forth. I think what is probably more realistic is to find ways to package these things that clients can access. Now, the problem is that the obvious thing to do is to take, for example, a private credit fund and list it because then you can buy it everywhere. But is the whole benefit of a private credit fund not undone by listing it, because then you become subject to volatility and daily pricing movements and Trump says something or interest rates move and then the price of your underlying investment moves? The whole idea of alternatives is to avoid that.

The Finance Ghost: Yeah, it’s such an interesting space. Just a moment of appreciation for Moe and how “closely” he watches the South African markets that the second delisting that came to mind was Imperial, which happened in 2022. Moe, on the money. I love it! I’m kidding. It’s more of a sector crossover and everything else, but actually there’s a message in there as well, which is to say that it’s not an exciting market compared to the international stuff on a listed level. It’s just not. There’s a reason why in Magic Markets Premium, we do what we do, which is to focus on the international stuff. It’s because South Africans, like everyone in the whole world, suffer from familiarity bias, right? They want to invest in brands they know, brands they can see and touch in a place they understand. It’s in the name, right? Johannesburg Stock Exchange. Okay, great, I know where Joburg is. I’ve been there. I know where that place is and I’m going to invest there. Familiarity bias is massive.

Dino, you guys have assets in a bunch of jurisdictions, you have investors in all sorts of interesting places. Do you also see that familiarity bias coming through in the private market? Do you find that South African investors are saying to you we’re interested in alternatives – and for that matter their advisors, the multi-managers, the whole ecosystem you’ve talked about – do they look at you and say: we’re interested in this but we want it close to home? Or does it not really come through in conversations you end up having?

Dino Zuccollo: It’s an interesting dynamic. I think many South Africans are pretty keen to invest offshore. A lot of us have gotten our heads around the fact that we would like some hard currency exposure. The dynamic that I do find fascinating is that South Africans love to invest in the UK for whatever reason. I don’t know if it’s cultural alignment, I don’t know if it’s that the privileged few, when they have gone overseas, have by and large gone to the UK. I don’t know if it’s time zone thing, compatibility of culture, but South Africans are really comfortable investing in the UK. When I meet a high-net-worth individual, many of them already own real estate in London and surrounds. What we do find is that there’s a lot of familiarity there. But then when we start to talk to investors about the US, which arguably is potentially more interesting at the moment just given where that market is, it’s far. The IRS in the US is scary. There are 50 states, each one’s really different. A lot of South Africans haven’t been there and it’s just foreign, right? And therefore it’s scary. When things are scary, I’ll just go back to what’s tried and tested and I buy some form of a tracker or ETF and I move on, right?

I definitely think that there are pockets of opportunity and certainly from a Westbrooke perspective, look, our UK business continues to be the biggest. It’s the flagship with the longest track record, etc. in the asset management side of things. But the US I see as a very big opportunity this year.

Mohammed Nalla: Ghost, going back to your comment, I mean, yes, it goes all the way back to Imperial. There were some sector crossovers there. I know there’s been a long, long, long list of companies that have delisted from the JSE…

The Finance Ghost: …this guy defending himself. Look at him. Look at him.

Mohammed Nalla: …no, but it talks to what we’re discussing today, right? That’s why there’s the opportunity for players like Westbrooke is there’s a lot of interest in private businesses. The overwhelming majority, as Dino’s mentioned, the overwhelming majority of businesses globally are actually unlisted. To Dino’s point around the US being a very exciting market, US economic exceptionalism notwithstanding, what we’re seeing right now with the tariff tantrums and the rest, the US has been a remarkably strong economy. Europe and the UK, they’ve struggled quite a bit. It’ll be interesting to see whether they come around the corner this year, given the kind of tensions we’re seeing globally.

Dino, you’ve kind of touched on the point I wanted to raise next, which is that seen some of the trends from 2024 follow through. You’ve mentioned how the US is a high potential market for you. You’ve had some interesting opportunities, you’ve discussed with us on the show historically. I want to really get into the outlook for Westbrooke for 2025 specifically from an opportunity set perspective. That’s not just geographically. You’ve touched on that. I want to understand what that looks like from an equity versus debt mix. Where is the value sitting in the value chain right now based on investor appetite? And then also based on the potential payoffs and the potential returns versus risk that you’re seeing in the market? Because that becomes very important in terms of informing an asset allocation for me as a client or for a pension fund or for anyone else that’s out there listening to the show.

Dino Zuccollo: Yep. Look, I think we’ve come from an environment, Moe, where for the last while, investors have just been paid much better for being in the debt of a business’ capital stack than in the equity. The equity holders for the last four or five years have been working primarily to pay the debt holders and get very little return for themselves. So, the big change this year is that interest rates have started to come down. I’m not a macroeconomist and this view seems to change almost weekly, but it would appear at the moment that interest rates will continue to come down this year. But not to the same degree as perhaps what had initially been thought, right? We’ve been very much in a private credit driven ecosystem where investors have been really enjoying high yields, even double digits in some instances in hard currency. I think that the big change is now with interest rates coming down, that should spark some level of equity activity.

If you look at our views, there’s two. The first is that M&A transaction flow should improve and M&A transaction flow improving for us means that there’s more opportunities to get into businesses, be it in what we call hybrid capital, so more in the mezz – pref equity with an equity-kicker type investment style, which is something that we plan on going into in the UK in a bigger way this year, but then also in things like real estate. Now real estate as we know is very linked to interest rates for two reasons. Firstly the ability to obtain debt, real estate is an inherently geared asset class, changes a lot based on where interest rates are. Then the value of a property changes correspondingly in what’s called the capitalisation rate, right?

I think what we’ve seen there, especially in a market like the US, is two things have happened. Interest rates have started to come down so you can get cheaper debt and what that means is property values should appreciate to some degree in the right subclasses. But, because we’ve been in this prolonged higher period of high interest rates, the expectation gap that used to exist between what a seller is asking for an asset and what a buyer is willing to pay has shrunk to some degree. That should translate more into transaction flow.

I think if you were to look at our view of the world in 2025, it’s that private debt remains relevant but, but it probably is logical to recycle into some element of equity, even if it is protected equity like hybrid capital.

Then I think the other theme that is yet to fully play out is GNU and post-GNU South Africa. What we saw last year was big hype, lots of excitement, lots of people talking about wanting to do things. But I think the consensus has been that the actual flow of the talk and the rhetoric into activity in the private markets in South Africa has been slower, right? I think what we’re hoping to see there is an increased flow of deals locally and that will allow us hopefully to bring some interesting opportunities to the client base locally where we’ve been pretty quiet over the last 18 months.

Mohammed Nalla: Dino, just maybe one quick follow up on that. In terms of the mix between local versus offshore from a South African domiciled investor perspective, what is the attractiveness of offshore relative to the attractiveness of the pipeline down in South Africa?

Dino Zuccollo: Yeah, it’s high Moe. I mean it’s always been for a very high-net-worth client, 80% and above offshore and for a slightly less wealthy client, probably 50/50 or in and around that range. You must remember that the nature of who your investor is changes that because if you’re a South African, you’ve probably got money locked up in some form of a pension fund, you probably own a house here and if you’re an entrepreneur, you got a business here. You inherently aren’t going to invest that much locally because you’ve already got a very high proportion of your net asset value invested locally in South Africa. So we see much more in the way of our clients investing offshore.

What I saw post-GNU was a few clients who said to me that’s it, I’ve taken my money offshore for a period of time, I’m investing locally, I’m bullish. I think that’s calmed a little bit. I think there was like a little bit of GNU-phoria initially. People becoming a little more aware of the realities of what’s going on here and whether the GNU even lasts – a question mark at the moment. But I’d say that on the whole, the relative degree to which clients want to invest in South Africa is slightly higher than what it was 24 months ago.

The Finance Ghost: I’m very glad you brought up that mix of debt and equity and where you guys are on the stack and everything else and how that mix is changing, because I actually wanted to ask you about that but you answered the question already.

I would refer the listeners, if you want, go listen to a podcast dedicated to this hybrid capital concept. In episode 81 we had Dino and we also had Richard Asherson from your UK team. Both of you are still at Westbrooke, which talks to the consistency of the team there, which actually says a lot. That show was all the way back in June 2022, which is around the same time that Moe likes to make references to deals on the JSE!

So it’s still fresh, much like – or definitely fresher than the Imperial example. Just kidding. I’m done with…he’s making rude signs at me. This is why we can’t use video. Do you see? This is why we have to – it’s got nothing to do with me and my brand. It’s got everything to do with Moe. Can’t control himself. Anyway, moving on from such horrible, rude things, Dino, I think you’ve touched on some of the stuff that’s obviously changing this year. You’ve touched on a lot of great points there. We’re going to do more and more of these this year as well. I think maybe just for understanding some of the consistency in the space, if there’s a trend that you could pick on to say, hey, here’s something that actually is just more of the same, it’s come through from last year. We’re just getting on with our business. That is really what you guys are up to, right? It’s business as usual. I think that’s maybe an important point in some respects is you’re carrying on doing what you’ve been doing and doing well for a while now, evidenced by the fact that we talked about this two years ago. You’ve now been at Westbrooke for how many years Dino?

Dino Zuccollo: Just over nine, I think.

The Finance Ghost: Yeah, that’s a decent innings. I guess that’s the last question for us on this podcast, just what carries through from last year? Is there anything specific you can think of or anything you want to specifically touch on?

Dino Zuccollo: Private credit for me is an interesting asset class because it is relevant to everybody. It’s relevant to your smaller – I don’t want to use the word retail, I just find the phrase like to be a bit demeaning – but your smaller investor, there’s absolutely a place for private credit in their portfolio. There’s absolutely a place for private credit in a family office portfolio. There’s absolutely a place in an institutional portfolio. Why? Because cash returns move with relevance to interest rates, right? So what we do at Westbrooke is we lock in the spread between what you can get in cash and what you can get in our funds and that spread doesn’t go away.

I think everybody in their portfolios has place for a higher yielding, low lock in, tax efficient type investment that is capital preservation focused. That’s the first thing.

The second thing, Ghost, is we mustn’t forget that if you look at the UK and if you look at the EU and you look at the US, average allocations to alternatives depending on where you are, if you are a high-net-worth individual, we’re talking 20% to 30% of your portfolio. If you’re talking family office, you’re up to 50%. South Africa, we are nowhere even close to that. Our growth is very much coming from an increased adoption rate in South Africa. To the point I made at the beginning of the podcast, if your goal is not just to get the highest possible return but it’s actually to diversify, then private credit makes sense for anyone who’s a new or first-time adopter into alternatives because of the lack of correlation and diversification benefits. That’s the way I look at it: you’ve got private credit as the hero of our business, the Steady Eddie. That’s always going to have relevance. Then over time your asset allocation will move to hybrid capital. This year, maybe next year, it’s private equity and we see where it goes now.

Mohammed Nalla: Dino, I want to land on something practical to close off the podcast. We’ve spoken a lot about this. For listeners that are maybe not familiar with Westbrooke, how can people who are interested find you? The second point is, in terms of accessibility, what is the minimum ticket size that Westbrooke would consider from investors? I think that’s really the nub of the issue for me is a lot of people sometimes listen to this and they’re like, that’s for rich people, I can’t really play here. But we’ve discussed retail or smaller investors, as you correctly call it, not being demeaning at all, smaller investors. What is the minimum ticket size? Where can people find you and can they get in touch and ask you any further questions?

Dino Zuccollo: Yeah, investors are always welcome to get hold of us directly, but I think the most logical way to do it is through your wealth advisor if you have one. Challenge them – have you looked at alternatives? Do you access them and then ask them if they don’t, why? Because you’ll be surprised with the answers. If the answer is “I can’t buy it on my platform” that’s not a very good answer. If the answer is “I don’t like the risk or the return profile” if there’s a good, sound fundamental thesis as to why people don’t like it, fair enough. But if it’s just an access impediment, that’s probably not a good enough answer.

I think the more progressive wealth businesses that have their fingers on the pulse are accessing wealth and alternatives and where they are very useful Moe is that you can get around things like the minimums by coming in through a wealth advisor, because what they do is they aggregate assets and then trade a bigger number with us at once. If you have a wealth advisor, get them to get hold of Westbrooke. If you’d like to talk to us directly or you don’t have one, you’re also welcome to do so. The minimums generally started at R1 million at the moment if you come to us directly. It’s different if you go through wealth. The best way to do that is you can get hold of us through the website. That’s westbrooke.com, Westbrooke with an e!

The Finance Ghost: Fantastic, Dino. Thank you. We’re going to ask you to spell Westbrooke out in exactly that voice every single time you come on the podcast for the rest of time. Just be prepared. It’s going to happen. I think we’re going to have to leave it there. Dino, thanks, it’s lovely to get you back on the show. The first one of 2025 and definitely not the last.

Good luck with the start of the year. We look forward to having you back and we can get into, as you say, some of the details around some of the stuff and just understanding exactly how Westbrooke plays. I think you’re at such an interesting point in the value chain at the end of the day of connecting opportunities and capital and it’s always good to dig into some of that stuff. o Dino, thank you.

Dino Zuccollo: And congrats, guys. I had no idea that we started with you in 2022. I feel like I’ve blinked and here we are. So well done.

The Finance Ghost: It might have been honestly older than that. Probably it was. It was even earlier than that. I just think Episode 81 is a good one to go back to for hybrid capital. But yeah, thanks, it’s 211 episodes did we say Moe? I can’t even remember now what the start of the show was. It’s a half-decent innings, 211 and counting.

Mohammed Nalla: And hopefully with Westbrooke on well into the future. And well into the past – for listeners not familiar, go and check out the library. You can go and search that on our website. It’s www.magic-markets.com. you can also find Ghost and myself on X @FinanceGhost and @MohammedNalla, or follow @magicmarketspod one word, or reach out to Dino and the team at Westbrooke if you have specific questions there. That’s where we’re going to leave it this week. We hope you’ve enjoyed it. Until next week, same time, same place. Thanks and cheers, Dino. We’ll see you soon.

The Finance Ghost: Ciao.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not financial or investment advice. Please speak to your personal financial advisor.